One I did yesterday
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Re: One I did yesterday
How about a nice solar pump to pump the water into your solar heat collecting system? This way your system will only be running when there is enough sun to power the pump and it would automatically drain down automatically at night and when there is no sun around. This should also prevent the melting of the pipework on hot sunny days if we ever get any.
Re: One I did yesterday
In truth the method I have always been very kean on is the use of a heat pump.
B.Scott
B.Scott
Re: One I did yesterday
Just a quick addition from thinking a bit more (dangerous I know)
I know there's a lot less sun in winter (when the water heating is required), but water heating systems are always concerned with getting the water up to 55-60 degC so you can have a bath. We're not, we're trying to get to 15 degC.
The panel is most efficient the cooler the input is and the cooler the tank is.
The panel will run if the panel temperature is 2 degC warmer than the water tank (or in our case the pond).
It should be possible to get usable heat into the pond from a couple of square metres of panel.
Cheers
Gordon
I know there's a lot less sun in winter (when the water heating is required), but water heating systems are always concerned with getting the water up to 55-60 degC so you can have a bath. We're not, we're trying to get to 15 degC.
The panel is most efficient the cooler the input is and the cooler the tank is.
The panel will run if the panel temperature is 2 degC warmer than the water tank (or in our case the pond).
It should be possible to get usable heat into the pond from a couple of square metres of panel.
Cheers
Gordon
Re: One I did yesterday
I like the simplicity of this idea. If coupled with a thermostat to turn the pump off when the water is warm enough then it could solve the problems of needing a heat exchanger surely?dho wrote:How about a nice solar pump to pump the water into your solar heat collecting system? This way your system will only be running when there is enough sun to power the pump and it would automatically drain down automatically at night and when there is no sun around. This should also prevent the melting of the pipework on hot sunny days if we ever get any.
Re: One I did yesterday
What IF we can fit somekind of retro paddle system, similar to the wind turbine turning but its simply wet?
I thought of that with the return to the pond and a paddle wheel!
How would this "cooling" work then?
My idea to gravity feed from filter to settlement tank would need no pump and hopefully not freeze and as I am not trying to produce hot water just warmer, but now worried about cooling? How would this happen?
Solar pump sounds good idea that drains when no sun...
Was just thinking about putting a sensor into pond to constantly record water temp compared to air temp to vantage pro2 weather station to see how they compare and sound alarm indoors or big temp diff but they are B****y expensive!!!
Keep the ideas coming...
I thought of that with the return to the pond and a paddle wheel!
How would this "cooling" work then?
My idea to gravity feed from filter to settlement tank would need no pump and hopefully not freeze and as I am not trying to produce hot water just warmer, but now worried about cooling? How would this happen?
Solar pump sounds good idea that drains when no sun...
Was just thinking about putting a sensor into pond to constantly record water temp compared to air temp to vantage pro2 weather station to see how they compare and sound alarm indoors or big temp diff but they are B****y expensive!!!
Keep the ideas coming...
Re: One I did yesterday
I like the simplicity too.
The only problem is the efficiency.
If Electrical generation is only 12% efficient, how big a PV panel are you going to need to generate enough electric to run the pump in the middle of winter when sunlight is at its weakest.
That said - you are only running a low wattage central heating pump say between 40 and 90 Watts.
A quick search and a 100W solar panel is going to cost you about £500
Hmmmm, mains power I think
Cheers
Gordon
The only problem is the efficiency.
If Electrical generation is only 12% efficient, how big a PV panel are you going to need to generate enough electric to run the pump in the middle of winter when sunlight is at its weakest.
That said - you are only running a low wattage central heating pump say between 40 and 90 Watts.
A quick search and a 100W solar panel is going to cost you about £500
Hmmmm, mains power I think
Cheers
Gordon
Re: One I did yesterday
Can't you just use an all-in-one solar pump? You can get them for £30 or £60 for the more powerful ones.
Re: One I did yesterday
I just don't think they'll move the water you need them to - especially if your panel is on the roof.
The £55 one will do 380 lph - the central heating pump 3500lph
The £55 one will do 380 lph - the central heating pump 3500lph
Re: One I did yesterday
But you are not wanting to move masses of water, just enough to stop it freezing?
You are only wanting to circulate a small amount as it is heated through the pipe.
ie:no movement means water just gets hotter in the pipe but small amount returns the water at a small but increased temp to the pond.
Still not sure how much one should change the temp of a pond in a day in degrees C???
You are only wanting to circulate a small amount as it is heated through the pipe.
ie:no movement means water just gets hotter in the pipe but small amount returns the water at a small but increased temp to the pond.
Still not sure how much one should change the temp of a pond in a day in degrees C???
Re: One I did yesterday
to quote John from another thread though again it is fitting.Another fitting one here is the power of the collective mind being greater than that of the individual parts..
Good trains of thought on this.
Taking a step sideways for a moment. The objective being if I understand correctly, is to harvest free power (sun, wind or water). Whether to heat pond water or utilise this energy for something else. Rather than expend the DC power (solar, wind or water) directly on one invention/prototype, wouldn't it be better harvested if the generated power fed and supplied a power source?
This could be 12v - 24v, Nicad or Lithium batteries. These in turn could supply regulated or inverted power to anything. Heating, pumping, lighting.
OK so far? We all agree the solar power will be intermittent as indeed will the wind. However water can be 24/7.
If a simple impeller (micro turbine) is fitted to any outlet going back into the pond, or even a 4" sump feeding the filters (inline)
spinning around merrily all day long, as the water is already pumped through the ponds pipes 24/7. A feed cable from the impeller (turbine) to the battery and VIOLA you have generated a constant flow of power. Surely this is the same free power used in the old days of mills by the rivers, generating and trickle feeding a power source 24/7.This same battery could also have other ancilliary sources of supply offering power, when available, such as solar and wind.
Why didn't Basiljet come up with this? Mains water nowadays is at 8 bar pressure and this concept could equally apply in the hyro industry. Someone must have done this already?
Aye,
TicToc
Re: One I did yesterday
It may slow your flow so would be better on the gravity fed back to pond hydro.
As mentioned earlier, you would get much more benefit from the suns rays heating the water in the pipe than a same sized solar panel that produces electricity to power a heater, it would need a field of panels I reckon, where the water version gets HOT.
Still not sure if backing should be black or silver?
Was gonna insulate backing anyway with polystyrene and sides too.
Worried how this cooling works but when not "sunny" I could just turn the supply tap off and open a valve to drain by letting air in.
As mentioned earlier, you would get much more benefit from the suns rays heating the water in the pipe than a same sized solar panel that produces electricity to power a heater, it would need a field of panels I reckon, where the water version gets HOT.
Still not sure if backing should be black or silver?
Was gonna insulate backing anyway with polystyrene and sides too.
Worried how this cooling works but when not "sunny" I could just turn the supply tap off and open a valve to drain by letting air in.
Re: One I did yesterday
Andy,
couple of thoughts.
You are quite right, you don't want anything in the flow from the pump. You will take energy from the flow and that is the same as adding head and it will cost you more energy to get the flow rate back to where it was than you will capture.
Putting it in the return is recapturing some of the energy you have already used.
Gravity is providing the energy in the water on the way down so, as long as you don't slow the water down too much, its free energy.
On the water heater, the backing definitely needs to be black.
Silver will reflect more of the sunlight without capturing the heat energy.
Black will absorb the light energy and radiate it as heat.
I must admit I'd think twice about polystyrene as the insulation - it has a pretty low melting point. I'd be more inclined to use the polyurethane foam - like Kingspan, which usefully comes foil faced.
Some (most?) of the commercial designs have the water tube in an insulated chamber behind the black plate.
The black plate, being metal, also heats the water tube by conduction.
The insulation can be silver foil faced to reflect the radiated heat back towards the water tube.
Cheers
Gordon
couple of thoughts.
You are quite right, you don't want anything in the flow from the pump. You will take energy from the flow and that is the same as adding head and it will cost you more energy to get the flow rate back to where it was than you will capture.
Putting it in the return is recapturing some of the energy you have already used.
Gravity is providing the energy in the water on the way down so, as long as you don't slow the water down too much, its free energy.
On the water heater, the backing definitely needs to be black.
Silver will reflect more of the sunlight without capturing the heat energy.
Black will absorb the light energy and radiate it as heat.
I must admit I'd think twice about polystyrene as the insulation - it has a pretty low melting point. I'd be more inclined to use the polyurethane foam - like Kingspan, which usefully comes foil faced.
Some (most?) of the commercial designs have the water tube in an insulated chamber behind the black plate.
The black plate, being metal, also heats the water tube by conduction.
The insulation can be silver foil faced to reflect the radiated heat back towards the water tube.
Cheers
Gordon
Re: One I did yesterday
Thats what I meant, silver back plate to reflect sun back onto the matt black tubes carrying the water.
If polystyrene is not touching the black pipe would it be ok?
Now to find a cheap plastic pipe to use? 10-15mm easy fit stuff??? from Jewsons???
My thick piece of table glass cracked in the heat!!!
If polystyrene is not touching the black pipe would it be ok?
Now to find a cheap plastic pipe to use? 10-15mm easy fit stuff??? from Jewsons???
My thick piece of table glass cracked in the heat!!!
Re: One I did yesterday
Gordon said
[url]http://www.reuk.co.uk/Rainbow-Power-300W-Hy ... erator.htm[/url]
Research this far has found several but only one around the size we are currently interested in. Though I admit that this seems a bit of a cop-out and think as its not nano by design......... Will need to do the calcs, I don't think a 2"outlet will have sufficient flow per second for this model in a pond environment. There must be some budding college Engineers out there working on nano hydros systems, somewhere in the world? Currently thinking, a shower outlet would seem to be the most apt free source of energy, then again it will come down to pump outlet power and head.
Nonetheless, I still think storing the energy to a battery is the most effeicient use.
Andy.
Suggest using a laminate transparent cover for the panel (allow for a little heat expansion in your design) rather than glass. Piping should be OK if you get the right stuff from a Plumbers.
Regards,
TicToc
On the button Gordon, all sources need some consideration. Problem is that research so far dictates that no commecial supplier is working on NANO micro hydro turbines.Putting it in the return is recapturing some of the energy you have already used.
Gravity is providing the energy in the water on the way down so, as long as you don't slow the water down too much, its free energy.
[url]http://www.reuk.co.uk/Rainbow-Power-300W-Hy ... erator.htm[/url]
Research this far has found several but only one around the size we are currently interested in. Though I admit that this seems a bit of a cop-out and think as its not nano by design......... Will need to do the calcs, I don't think a 2"outlet will have sufficient flow per second for this model in a pond environment. There must be some budding college Engineers out there working on nano hydros systems, somewhere in the world? Currently thinking, a shower outlet would seem to be the most apt free source of energy, then again it will come down to pump outlet power and head.
Nonetheless, I still think storing the energy to a battery is the most effeicient use.
Andy.
Suggest using a laminate transparent cover for the panel (allow for a little heat expansion in your design) rather than glass. Piping should be OK if you get the right stuff from a Plumbers.
Regards,
TicToc
Re: One I did yesterday
I have thick glass and plastic knocking around which would dictate the size of the panel to cut costs.
Interesting about the hydro stuff. In theory, you can tap loads of hydro sources from rain water off the roof(our roof gets 1mm of rain and fills butts of 120Litres of water ) but only when raining, every time water flows down a down pipe from sink or shower etc, the problem being is the pay back time of some re-usable energies, some I have read that take 3 life times!!! and although i forget whih one it is, it is one of the most commone used or thought of!!!!!!!
The storage of power seems to be the expensive problem(batteries etc) don`t last forever and expensive to replace.
Maybe this low power stuff is only good to power a few LED`s in the garden from a charged car battery???
Still dont know the answer to how the panel could super cool the pond water yet!!!!???????
and how much a pond temp can be varied daily or nightly etc????????
Interesting about the hydro stuff. In theory, you can tap loads of hydro sources from rain water off the roof(our roof gets 1mm of rain and fills butts of 120Litres of water ) but only when raining, every time water flows down a down pipe from sink or shower etc, the problem being is the pay back time of some re-usable energies, some I have read that take 3 life times!!! and although i forget whih one it is, it is one of the most commone used or thought of!!!!!!!
The storage of power seems to be the expensive problem(batteries etc) don`t last forever and expensive to replace.
Maybe this low power stuff is only good to power a few LED`s in the garden from a charged car battery???
Still dont know the answer to how the panel could super cool the pond water yet!!!!???????
and how much a pond temp can be varied daily or nightly etc????????