Simply Koi and More Koi

Hi Duncan

Am I right in thinking Flubenol is ineffective if mixed with water and that Acetone is paramount?

Seems Acetoone a chemical to avoid if appropriate?

Regards

Kev

Hi Kev,

Hope you don't mind me answering for Duncan mate

Yes you must use Acetone is a must when mixing Flubonel and don't worry it will not harm the fish in any way.

Gazz

Not at all mate and thanks

Regards

Kev

Your welcome we aim to please

Gazz

Out of curiosity why does it have to be acetone and not water?

regards

Kev

Kev I think it is generally stated that Acetone is an excellent dissolving compound, something to do with polar and non-polar, no doubt Syd or Dunc will make some sense of what I have just waffled. I did some chemistry and stuff at school but it was a long time ago lol.

G.

Organic Solvent Chemistry 101,

Good afternoon class, settle down at the back please. Gazza, stop that immediately!

Today's subject is acetone.

Acetone is generally agreed to be what is known as an organic compound. There are different definitions for the expression "organic" but the simplest, and in my opinion the most descriptive, is a molecule that contains several C's that have multiple molecular bonds to H's. This means that there are carbon atoms and hydrogen atoms which are joined together, not just one to one, (like straight sex) but either several joined to one, or several joined to several at the same time (like group sex).

Acetone (CH3)2CO is a good solvent for compounds such as Flubenole (Flubendazole C16H12FN3O3) because it contains lots of C's and H's all joined together in multiple combinations and just like a pile of people at a party, they will always make room for a few extra C's and H's that want to join in.

Once acetone (CH3)2CO and Flubendazole C16H12FN3O3 are joined together, so many new C and H connections are made simultaneously that they resist all attempts to pull them apart. The acetone and flubenole are effectively now one compound.

Solvents:
If you put salt in water, it dissolves and it becomes impossible to separate the two by mechanical filtration. Ie you can't filter it out.

If you put oil in water it doesn't dissolve. If you shake it up, it will mix for a while but eventually all the tiny droplets will float to the surface and form a film or oil slick that can be mechanically filtered by scraping it off of the surface.

There are other compounds that are miscible. They don't actually dissolve in water but they will spread evenly through it. This is almost like dissolving but they could be recovered if you wanted to by such mechanical means as filtration through something like a filter paper.

Since acetone is miscible in water, if it has already dissolved flubenole and formed permanent bonds, and if it then added to water, as it spreads through the liquid it will take the flubenole with it. The flubenole isn't dissolved in the water but the acetone has mixed so evenly, taking the flubenole with it, that to all intents and purposes, the flubenole could be regarded as being dissolved. Although of course, it could actually be filtered back out if desired.

Class dismissed!

*Hands up*

Question please !

Mixing water and salt, if this was to evaporate you would be left with salt what would happen if you did salt and Acetone does the same thing occur? taking that question further, Flubenhol and Acetone as we all know acetone evaporates alot quicker than water. What would we be left with?

Graham

I've never tried this, nor do I know anyone who has but I'm fairly certain this is what would happen.

Salt would certainly dissolve in acetone and water but almost certainly not undergo any irreversible chemical change. There isn't anything about the chemistry that suggests it would. Mixing them all together:

Acetone and water: Acetone has a funny shaped molecule. It has a "sticky out bit" of hydrogen and carbon. This will have a weak attractive force that water molecules can stick to which is why it is "miscible" - it won't dissolve but it mixes easily with water and remains fairly stable. If we supply energy in the form of heat, the two molecules vibrate with more and more energy until they "unstick" and shake apart. At that point the acetone will leave the water and boil off before the water is even too hot to put your hands into. You would need to continue to heat the water to 100 degrees before the water would boil away.

Acetone and salt and water forms aqueous salt (salt + water) which is strongly stable, plus there would be water molecules that had formed a weak bond with the "sticky out bit" of the acetone molecule as above. Heat this solution and the acetone would let go and boil away as above and leave the aqueous salt solution. If you then raised this to boiling point, the water would boil away and leave the salt behind.

Acetone and flubenol: I'm certain (but I can't prove it) that these must form bonds in the same way that salt dissolves and makes stable bonds with water molecules. My reasoning; if the acetone modified the flubenol to form different compounds, these new compounds would no longer be flubenol so they wouldn't work as a treatment for parasites.

Water plus salt is just wet salt. No new chemicals are formed which is why, when you mix salt with water then heat it up, you get exactly the same salt back again, not some strange new chemical after the water has been boiled away.

Therefore, if I'm right and flubenol isn't modified by the acetone into Fluby-Acetoney-Endazol or something equally outragous which would make it no longer flubenol (ie useless as a treatment), exactly the same will happen as when you heat salt water and get the salt back. Heating acetone and flubenol will break the C - H bonds, the acetone will be free to boil away and you will get flubenol back.

QED


Ps: QED (quod erat demonstrandum) is the Latin we always put at the end of theoretical calculations or scientific reasoning and means: that which was required to be shown (is now proved)

Although this might be better from an old chemistry master would would sometimes cross out QED and replace it with:

EVSL (eo venit sed luctatus) which roughly translated means that the student had struggled but got the correct answer.

Manky Sanke wrote:Organic Solvent Chemistry 101,

Good afternoon class, settle down at the back please. Gazza, stop that immediately!

Today's subject is acetone.

Acetone is generally agreed to be what is known as an organic compound. There are different definitions for the expression "organic" but the simplest, and in my opinion the most descriptive, is a molecule that contains several C's that have multiple molecular bonds to H's. This means that there are carbon atoms and hydrogen atoms which are joined together, not just one to one, (like straight sex) but either several joined to one, or several joined to several at the same time (like group sex).

Acetone (CH3)2CO is a good solvent for compounds such as Flubenole (Flubendazole C16H12FN3O3) because it contains lots of C's and H's all joined together in multiple combinations and just like a pile of people at a party, they will always make room for a few extra C's and H's that want to join in.
























Once acetone (CH3)2CO and Flubendazole C16H12FN3O3 are joined together, so many new C and H connections are made simultaneously that they resist all attempts to pull them apart. The acetone and flubenole are effectively now one compound.

Solvents:
If you put salt in water, it dissolves and it becomes impossible to separate the two by mechanical filtration. Ie you can't filter it out.

If you put oil in water it doesn't dissolve. If you shake it up, it will mix for a while but eventually all the tiny droplets will float to the surface and form a film or oil slick that can be mechanically filtered by scraping it off of the surface.

There are other compounds that are miscible. They don't actually dissolve in water but they will spread evenly through it. This is almost like dissolving but they could be recovered if you wanted to by such mechanical means as filtration through something like a filter paper.

Since acetone is miscible in water, if it has already dissolved flubenole and formed permanent bonds, and if it then added to water, as it spreads through the liquid it will take the flubenole with it. The flubenole isn't dissolved in the water but the acetone has mixed so evenly, taking the flubenole with it, that to all intents and purposes, the flubenole could be regarded as being dissolved. Although of course, it could actually be filtered back out if desired.

Class dismissed!

another long winded post,can we have a simply answer,like when dissolving flubenole..is acetone the thing too use.

Hi Sam,

Yes Aceton only not water

Sam,

The question I answered was specifically addressed to Duncan or myself. It didn't ask if acetone was the correct solvent to use to dissolve flubenol because that had already been answered anyway.

Kevin asked

Am I right in thinking Flubenol is ineffective if mixed with water and that Acetone is paramount?

Gazza answered

Yes you must use Acetone is a must when mixing Flubonel and don't worry it will not harm the fish in any way.

But following on from that, Grahame asked

I think it is generally stated that Acetone is an excellent dissolving compound, something to do with polar and non-polar, no doubt Syd or Dunc will make some sense of what I have just waffled

And I gave a full answer. Long, but with a detailed explanation and as simplified as I could make it. It was obviously appreciated (perhaps not by you) because there was a follow up question which I've also just answered in simplified detail.

No-one forces you to read what I write. I don't like East Enders but I don't pen letters complaining about it, when it comes on, I simply don't watch.

There is enough ill feeling on koi forums and it isn't encouraged in here. I get the impression from posts you make here and elsewhere that there is an aggressive undertone to your posts and I get the impression that you particularly are always looking to have a pop at me where-ever possible. So may I respectfully suggest that you don't read what I write rather than post the kind of replies you keep making.

Although you might take the trouble to read the other (much shorter) posts on the thread and see that the initial question had already been answered and that I was reponding to a completely different question.

Now think carefully how you post, or whether you even need to post. Bickering does not show maturity. If there is something you don't like, why not just ignore it? Of course, if that isn't an option for you and if you don't like what you read on here there's always East Enders!

Mr Manky,

Thank you for a brilliant explanation.

Back in my days we didnt do any chemisty lessons at my school, but with your explanation, even I could understand it, so thank you.


Chris (another one)

Never too old to learn.

Thanks Sid

As usual very understandable and digestible for us mere mortals

Matthew

Thanks Sid

So out of curiosity, if mixed with water, as recommended by a well known fluke treatment on the market, would the dose be ineffective?

Regards

Kev