Simply Koi and More Koi

Hi guys

My feeling is that this disease is like pulling mushrooms. Any remaining hyphae will regenerate and release spores so any fish with this problem is almost incurable unless you can do a wide local excision not just the bits that you can see but probably about an extra 5 mm all around the lesion so I guess Dunc is right. In an animal you can amputate a limb to save the body but in a fish, as we are all strugling with, this isn't so easy.

I am looking through a stack of references to see if there are any experimental systemic (injectable) agents being researched but as one guy wrote (as long as it only kills frogs not much money will be directed to research) and I am not optimistic.

Peter

Thanks for your comments. I will keep an eye out for infection; I've been lucky so far in avoiding any bacterial problems. It's interesting that this can be spread by frogs - I didn't know where this could have come from and I've spent some time wondering. Mind you, I don't believe I've had any amphibious visitors to my pond.

Dunc,

When cutting the affected area away, I went in until I could feel something hard against the scalpel (assuming this to be the rays). May I ask, would you have cut deeper than I have, or gone back to clear more material than I have after the initial cut - is there a particular feature seen in the images that should have been cleared?

Sorry, more questions, as always!

Paul T.

Hi Paula 24
I didn't mean to imply that the spores are spread buy only frogs but that this has been the most common vector un epidemics that have been examined.

With regards to the extent of the local excision, I dont think the hyphae will penetrate the cartilage but they spread out through the soft tissue like the hyphae of mushrooms and each hypha contains many spores. So the hyphae can grow back again and eeven worse can release the sopres leading to new infection.

Fingures crossed for you.

Peter

Thanks again, Peter. I've got my fingers crossed too.

Stupid thought of the day - could any of the many antifungal remedies available be of any use?

Paul T.

hi Paul

i think you did a splendid job mate, and its hard tro say what and how i would have proceeded because i need to have the fish right in front of me and then and only then would i know how i was going to proceed , what i was thinking was i would have gone in a slightly bigger area ( just a tad) and having cut the top off maybe scraped down to the cartilage getting in between the rays as best i could without penetrating out the other side. The reason for the cauteriser was to do this job for you but im thinking this has not worked for some reason ( it has in the past)

remember there is no recognised cure for this and this fish is showing remarkable healing powers nothing phases this fish in the way its skins over and you must have superb water for this to happen so because of this fact im not ruling this fish out just yet

dunc

Thanks for the extra information, Dunc.

I will post a progress picture on Saturday.

Paul T.

Hi Paul;

I have finished going through the research databases and can find no good proposals for systemic treatment so, as Duncan says the treatment is local and then up to the fish's immune system to deal with anthing that is left.
For Duncan's info, but he probably knows this already, there is a derivative of amphotericin B that was abandoned but could be given IP and there is some interesting data on topical Ampho B........ cannot find any references to this being tried in fish but it would seem a good idea as the fish disease is local, we debulk it and then seal it in as per normal fish wound care. Anybody any ideas on this ?

Peter

Sorry guys to keep posting on this subject but it is very interesting;

If anybody finds a case and considers treatment could they let me know by pm or on this site. I would like to send out some containers to get samples sent back to me. I have alocal colleague who will work with me to try and culture this funny bug and test if any of the available anti /biotics/fungal agents are active against it.

Any info / samples gratefully received.

Peter

Not looking good, I don't think!

Hi Peter,

I'm sure (fear) that something else will have to be done here at some point? (eutha....no I won't say it) So I think there will be an opportunity to get a sample for you. The only thing I'd ask is for idiot's instructions on what is required, to try to ensure I can get something that will be useful. Thank you for looking into this.

Of course I await any thoughts on this.

As always, thanks for taking the time to look at these posts.

Paul T.

Could you not remove all the membrane infected and leave the bony rays and then try to encourage re generation of the tail??
Dont know if this is feasable.

Hello Stuart,

I had thought about that, but wouldn't entertain trying without advice. My biggest concern is that, on the larger site, the 'infection' is now very close to the body. It maybe that the last attempt was my final opportunity to deal with this? But I will see what others think.

Cheers
Paul T.

hi Paul

im sorry mate but this is as i thought last week, is the3re no way you can get her up to me?

well you not quite at the body yet you have another set of fin bones you cant see to go through called the hypurals ( caudal fin bones)

i would like to take one last radical shot at her then if you wont to ave this fish if she means that much we can do a partial amputation , i think even with a tiny bit of caudal fin she can live a atifying life and be a good pond mate for your other fish

dunc

Hi Duncan/Paul,

With my days attempt with my chag in mind, I was obviously concerned how events have progressed with this koi?

Mark

Hello Mark,

There's nothing more to report at the moment and I've stopped bowling her for weekly inspection and photos, as I see no benefit to stressing her with this. There should be another attempt to sort this out and I will provide an update then for people's reference/information.

Cheers
Paul T.

Paul,

Glad to hear she is still with you, and hope you can sort out the dermo eventually.

Mark