Different Methods....

[greg]

This one is kinda started off by the "cosmetic" thread but going off in a slightly different direction.

It is about the treatment of show koi for ailments. It is very much one thing treating a koi to get it well again and this is extreme cases needs to be the priority no matter the aesthetic cost to the koi's show career.

But...

If you have a koi with a injury / wound / ailment - can you alter the way you would address the problem to try to keep what could be a potentially expensive show koi in show condition? I touched on this a while ago in a thread where i mentioned differing types of scale removal.

Wondering if there are others ways to do this aswell - things like injection sites, products used, fin injuries etc.

[Duncan]

greg

im struggling with this one mate becuase as far as i can see if you have this kind of problem its about saving the fish and probably cosmetics is not going to come into it if ity doers i dont see it as much of a problem if you get my drift?

dunc

[Gazza]

Hi Greg,

I take it you are looking for the best way to heal a fish if you show would this be like if a fish has a wound will it be better to glue or stitch

[Geoff9]

Hi Greg
If it's common practice to remove shimmies ect from show koi,wouldn't it be better if the BKKS didn't bother about such things when judging,if it didn't matter then people showing koi would stop this practice?,if a kohaku ect is judged for it's beauty not small imperfections,just a thought from a novice.

Regards Geoff

[Brockp]

Hi Greg

I think we are all struggling to help here. Are you looking for "alternative therapies" equivalent to complimentary medicine? or are you looking for different, less evasive, ways of treating ulcers?

Peter

[greg]

Peter,

Spot on - i was thinking of less evasive ways to carry out treatments. Ways to try to prevent keloid scarring / bone removal etc etc.

[tomc]

Very low bacterial count water, meaning that you only have to treat IF the koi can't recover itself. Which then means avoiding rushing in.

Then if something serious, once stable, into very warm water for rapdi regneration and no messing around.

[Brockp]

Tomc;
To help how do you measure that you have low bacterial count water?

As Duncan and some others know, I did some experiments using dip slide cultures in my growing on pond over the winter. Yep I could really knock my bacterial count (colony forming units) down with a bang (I used Virkon S) but if you followed up with repeat tests the counts were back to” normal” after about 2 weeks (pond at 23 C). The good news was that the fungal cultures remained negative for up to 6 weeks; the bad news was that the pseudomonas species bounced back first.

So to keep my bacterial count down I would have to dose the pond about every 2 weeks. The other bad news is that none of these agents, including CT, are selective about which bugs they kill; they are all “broad spectrum” agents. And even a well established bio filter is bound to suffer if it gets repeatedly exposed to these antimicrobial agents.

So I wonder
a) how you measure your bacterial level and
b) how do you keep it low?

Peter

[tomc]

Assuming you are a starting point of a good clean pond, rather than try and take remedial action on a problem or a problem pond, to answer the questions in reverse order:

To keep count low:
A) very effective mechanical filtration to exit waste at earliest and quickest possibility
B) No means of buildup in other parts of system
C) Enough turnover to "sweep" bottom of pond
D) Fresh water in good supply

To measure bacterial count I don't have a means (see next bit) but on the basis infection rates in last 2 years from "knocks" have been zero, and knowing how I deal with above, then a fairly good assumption that the count is low.

The follow type of thing (not recommending it specifically but I know of it) could be used.
http://www.houseofkata.com/page.php?159
I'm sure Dunc or others knows of much cheaper ways of achieving the same rather than get one with "koi" badged on the front

Tom

[Norseman]

I would totally agree with Tom on this one. Two years ago I had some terrible problems with bacterial issues and high fish losses. I had a huge bacterial levels and sores would double in size in 24 hours. I had terrible problems reducing this and saving my fish. In the end I used salt and heat to aid the fish healing. Since the problem I have planned several filter upgrades to reduce waste build up and improve water quality. I also introduced a 24/7 trickle water change, which was initially just filtered water but is now ro( up to 5% a day). The changes in my fish are incredible, they are generally much healthier but most important if they knock or damage themselves the majority of the time it clears up without me ever touching them. So as a pondkeeper my stress levels are massively reduced.

Simon

[Brockp]

Hi Tom

Yep agree with all the measures so keep water quality as high as possible and the cleaning to avoid the build up of detritus; unfortunately, even after doing all this you still finish up with bacteria soup.

My pond that I did the testing on was glass fibre no nocks a crannies and kept very clean, still got the results I reported on in my last post.

I bet you have no bacteria problems because you look after your fish well and keep the water conditions really well controlled it would be interesting to see what the colony count is from your clean pond.

The URL to the Koi dip slide system is similar to the one I use but from a manufacturer for the NHS i.e. doesn’t have Koi in the name and therefore a fraction of the price. The dip slide system works well and after a while you get quiet good and doing colony counts (CFUs) so you get a semi quantitative assay.

Have you tried dipping your pond to see what the count is ? You don’t need the complicated incubator to do it. If you would like to know if you pm’ d your address I could send you the general dip slide for bacteria mould and fungi . If you sent it back I could incubate it and let you know privately what the CFU count is all for free because it is a topic that really interests me.

Peter

[tomc]

Hi Peter

Sorry, just been catching up on this post.

Thank you for the offer. Let's try an experiment. I'll PM you.

Should be interesting

Tom

[Brockp]

Hi Tom;

PM received and kit plus instructions in the post.

Peter