BACTERIAL PROBLEMS (he has died)

[kimr]

Hi All

I have a couple of issues with a Kohaku, he had what looked like white lumps on his tail and a couple of red marks on his side. I also had a Chagoi who seemed to have gone a bit to far into the skimmer and had damage to both sides just past the gill plates. I treated the pond with CT a couple of weeks ago and the Chagoi has cleared up totally. There is also a Sanke in the pond who has had no problems at all. The Kohaku's tail seemed to be getting worse so I got him out. While he is in the pond all his fins are white but as soon as he was caught his fins became really red through stress. I sedated him a litte bit yesterday so I could have a quick look without stressing him to much and did a quick topical treatment on the marks on his sides with Mercurochrome and MFR-1 for the fins.


First photo taken of his tail


As you can see the longer he is out the worse the redden is


Marks on his side


Looks slightly ulcerated

After taken some advice from a good friend it was decided to treat the pond again with C.T, I also decided to do a more in depth topical treatment, so I used Koi Calm to knock him out as it is slightly more gentle and having knocked him out yesterday I didnt want to over do things. This is what his tail looked like today


It took a while to knock him out hence the redness



Seeing as he wasn't totally out I couldn't take any photos while treating as I was on my own, With his tail I cleaned the arera and used HP 3% to clean it as best as I could, cleaned it all up and used MRF-1 and covered his tail, then used orasive powder and lock and seal plus to seal it.
I then started on his sides. This was far worse than I thought although the scale pockets were still firmly closed I found quite a few dead or dying scales, so removed them cleaned the socket out and used Merurochrome then orasive powder and lock and seal plus



After treating everything I could find, and after making sure I had got everything I returned to him the pond and held him until he had recovered. I went to clear up and discovered I had to remove 7 scales



I have dosed the pond with C.T as I have really hard water PH 8.4 GH 7-8 and KH 6 I have really hard water the temp of the pond is around 20.

If there is something I havn't done or anything else anyone can suggest to try please help as this Koi is very special as he was a present from a dear friend. Sorry the post is so long

[Graham.]

Kim I cant see anythng that I would have done extra, so I think its now down to time for the healing process to kick in.

What is it this year with bacterial issues? ive never seen so many forums with them?

With all this flooding and water issues are the water companies on top of things with there cleaning process or are things still getting by, it makes me wonder.

Kim I hope things clear up, please keep us informed as you know a few of us have been in your boat so understand how stressful and annoying this all is.

Yours

Graham

[Gazza]

Hi Kim,

It does look a bit nasty and lets hope you get on top of this pretty quick before it gets to bad.

The tail looks very red does it look as bad when its in the water and i have not seen the sort of carp pox looking stuff on the tail before and not sure if its carp pox or something a bit more sinister.

[kimr]

Hi

You are right Gazza what looked like a small mark as turned into something really bad, the areas where the scales where pulled and treated dont look so agressive at the moment but this Kohaku has fooled me before with it lloking a lot better then goodness only knows what happened. The tail which looked like a case of maybe carp pox is very worrying, but hopefully his tail will be easier to clear.

The latest is he is just staying near the bottom and really not doing much at all, he is not coming up for food like he was before the treatment. I am wondering if this is a case of stress gone bad. I am trying to stay calm but as you know it isn't easy. Before the treatment he was still coming up to feed and was swimming around fine and when he went back in after the treatment he was doing ok and ate that evening, but the day he went down to the bottom and unless I put the net near him he will not move. I don't want anything to start on his tummy now. Has anyone got any idea's why he might be on the bottom, the pond is running well the maintainance is good as I do it everyday, I am now in the catch 22 where do I get him out again to have another look or do I leave alone for a few more days

[kimr]

Well the latest is, is he is off the floor and swimming, still not feeding but at least he isnt on the bottom not moving. Things seem to be looking ok from what I can see but the water has now turn green, it has been clear since it was started and now I need it clear it has turned green

But the main thing is he is moving about so must be feeling better

[Gazza]

Hi Kim,

Good news that its looking better

[kimr]

Please please help, I really do know what is wrong with this Kohaku, after treating his tail and fin on the 28th June he went to the bottom and sulked, he finally started swimming around and he seemed a lot lot better, the redness had nearly gone and his tail didnt look to bad. Yesterday evening I noticed green fungi on his head in 3 place's, considering he had no damage to his head it confused as to how he got it there.

I went today to salt bath him at 0.3% and I could not believe what I was seeing


The phts are not great but the best I could do, his dorsal fin is being eaten away and has a lot of bone exposed, there is a large patch of green fungi on his side.


His tail has half gone, it looks so horrible

He had a few patches of fungi on his other side but when released into the salt it had sluffed off inside the Koi sock. He also lost one scale. He isn't over producing mucus but he has a massive amount of raised scales, even down by his tail. I said yesterday to myself he looked like he is melting away and after today seeing up close it is the worst thing I have ever seen.

Now the strange bit he is swimming around as if nothing is wrong, he isnt sulking, breathing hard, just acting normal. I wish I could better photo's but my son wouldn't hold him for fear of making things worse. Any advice or suggestions woud great

Thank you

[Gazza]

Hi Kim,

Its hard to see from the pictures but sounds like things not going your way when we was hoping it would pick up.

It must be some kind of bacterial trouble and i am wondering why this has just gone down and wondering how low the immune system is on this fish and if this is going to be a problem

[kimr]

Hi Gazza

This is bacterial or viral, whatever it is is melting him away. His gills are fine, no heavy mucus and he is swimming and breathing fine, so it just doesnt make sense. The other 2 in the pond are still fine and eatting normally not a mark on them. Like you have said an immunity problem. I am wondering if I should get him out, cut all the bone away that is exposed, his left pec has a curve shape gone but no redness at all. I will try and get some better photo's tomorrow but I am trying to treat him with as little stress as possible, he behaved well in the salt bath today so maybe I should take the salt up 0.6%. I can not CT the pond now for 7 days as I have just finished another course.

I was hoping you might have seen it before and know what is causing it

[kimr]

Hi All

Well I went out today to treat and start an even stronger course of CT. Sadly it was to late. Please forgive the photo's some where taken by my son and some by me.

This is what his tail looked like 8 days ago



And this is what it looked like today



This is what his dorsal fin looked like 8 days ago



and this is what it looked like today



Side area where a few dead scales were pulled



And today



Here you can just about see his anal fin



And today



When I had him out to treat him at the end of last week his fins were ok which is why I didn't take any photo's of them, but hopefully you can see in the photo just how bad things had got. What has really shocked me is the speed this has taken hold. I think you can tell the area's I had to pull scales from have started to heal nicely, no redness just nice white healthy tissue. On Tuesday and Wednesday he was doing great, swimming around and he looked really good his tail was white his dorsal didnt look sore and his sides where as you can see in the photo healing nicely. Then Thursday night I noticed he had some spots of fungi on his head which was strange as he hasn't damaged his head, so yesterday I got him out to do a salt bath, he was his normal self for catching and he did well in the salt. He went back in swimming normally and breathing well. He hasn't been hanging is air rich water or head down or up, he has been swimming around as normal. He has had in total 3 courses of CT with the strength being increased each course. His gill's have no rot or grey area's, just pale as I guessed he must have died in the night as he was on the bottom.

I am gutted, a very dear friend gave him to me, and I don't know what I did wrong. The other 2 Koi in the pond are doing great no issues what so ever. I think what has shocked me is the speed this has taken hold. The issue's where the scales had died was showing good sign's of repair, but his fin's, well the photo's say it all. Also if his gill's were showing sign's of rot I might be heading down a differant road, also I have done 7 scrapes from differant area's on him including inside his gill's and found nothing.

[Gazza]

Hi Kim,

Sorry to hear this and you did your very best for the fish to give it the best chance.

[Geoff9]

Hi Kim
Sorry you have lost a koi,I lost one a few weeks ago when the covers were on,there was never a problem with this koi had it 7 years and never had to get it out of the pond for any reason,then one day it was upside down and dead,if they live they can die it's just one of the problems with any livestock,nothing we can do I'm afraid.

Regards Geoff

[kimr]

Hi Gazza

Thank you for the kind words and all your support through this, I can't help wondering if there was something else I should of done, or something I did wrong, so your kind words help a lot ( and I really mean that)



Hi Geoff

It is horrible when you lose a Koi no matter how long you have had it, when I first started keeping Koi I heard a lot about sudden death, it seems Koi can suffer from a weaker heart. Whether it has something to do with all the messing around the generations have gone through, and really there is no way telling if they have a weak heart until you find them dead, with what looks like no reason what so ever. It's just not nice not to know what it was, it leave's us wondering.