Hi everyone,
As half term's just arrived I am about to do a re-fit of my QT tank (for pictures and more details [url=http://mauricecox.proboards54.com/index.cgi ... hread=1138]see this thread on the Koi-UK forum[/url]) and am looking for your advice and opinions again!
I am going to take the pond and filter out and insulate the area underneath the pond properly. My question is the best way to do this! I was thinking Kingspan at first, but Sushi pointed out that polystyrene is a lot cheaper. However I'm not sure polystyrene will have enough strength or flexibility when the pond is filled. My worry is that it will simply snap all along the side as the pond fills and bulges with water and hence losing a lot of it's insulating properties! So I was thinking of a flexible option.
At first I looked at the foil backed sheets to go behind radiators etc. but they're very thin. Then I thought of a [url=http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?a ... earch=true]new loft insulation[/url] that I've recently seen someone use in a fish house. It's soft and flexible like traditional glass fibre insulation, but made from recycled pop bottles and totally non-toxic. It doesn't have the dust and little fibres either!
So now I'm thinking lay a base layer of this stuff under the frame pond then I'm thinking of maybe adding a layer of Kingspan to provide a strong flat base to the pool and some extra insulation as this layer of wool will obviously be very compressed!
Around the sides I will fill the gap between the pond and the greenhouse walls with one or two layers of insulation so there is no gap at all around the edges (hence no need for the pond to be netted any more!).
Do you reckon that work work well and do a good enough job? I want to heat the pool this winter but can't do it unless the insulation is as good as I can make it. What's the ultimate way to insulate a pond, or anything else, like this?
Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Moderators: B.Scott, vippymini, Gazza, Manky Sanke
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Eds,
As no one has posted to this worthy post I thought I would assure you it will work out fine and you are doing everything possible to retain the heat.
The base layer of foam is the same as would be used in the building trade if laying a floating floor. You seem to have thought about or at least included every other option in your posting Mukka.
Good luck, would be nice to know how cosy it will be compared to ambient temperature.... piccies when you get a chance please.
Aye
TicToc
As no one has posted to this worthy post I thought I would assure you it will work out fine and you are doing everything possible to retain the heat.
The base layer of foam is the same as would be used in the building trade if laying a floating floor. You seem to have thought about or at least included every other option in your posting Mukka.
Good luck, would be nice to know how cosy it will be compared to ambient temperature.... piccies when you get a chance please.
Aye
TicToc
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Cheers mate! I do have a slight tendency to over-think things - but best to be prepared IMHO!
It's been suggested to me that a couple of layers of polystyrene might be easier to sort for the base insulation than the kingspan and Eco-wool (It'll certainly be cheaper!) and with a couple of layers of woolly pond underlay I think it'll do the job and be much easier to deal with. I'm going to put at least 50mm of polystyrene down there. For the sides I'm sticking with the Eco-wool for all the reasons I said above.
I've just started digging the trench for the permanent power and water supplies and will start taking pictures when I start the pondy parts! Tomorrow is planned to be D-day! (assuming the pipe fittings arrive!) I'll start taking lots of readings to compare temps before and after. At the moment the pond is 10oC compared to an outside temperature of about 7oC. My main pond is 7.5oC at the moment.
It's been suggested to me that a couple of layers of polystyrene might be easier to sort for the base insulation than the kingspan and Eco-wool (It'll certainly be cheaper!) and with a couple of layers of woolly pond underlay I think it'll do the job and be much easier to deal with. I'm going to put at least 50mm of polystyrene down there. For the sides I'm sticking with the Eco-wool for all the reasons I said above.
I've just started digging the trench for the permanent power and water supplies and will start taking pictures when I start the pondy parts! Tomorrow is planned to be D-day! (assuming the pipe fittings arrive!) I'll start taking lots of readings to compare temps before and after. At the moment the pond is 10oC compared to an outside temperature of about 7oC. My main pond is 7.5oC at the moment.
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Good luck with the digging Eds. Leave it any longer digging out those footings than this week Mukka and your digging into ice according to weather forecast 
Then again how often do they get it right?
Preparation & Planning, suggest laying some of that insulation down on where you will be digging.
Tickers
Then again how often do they get it right?
Preparation & Planning, suggest laying some of that insulation down on where you will be digging.Tickers
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Ha ha! Fortunately the digging's done!
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Hi Ed
Sorry just seen this post. I know the ECO-Wool insulation that you are referring from B&Q. That will NOT be suitable for laying underneath the framed pond, in my opinon. The reason is that it works by trapping the air and is an excellent insulator between the gaps in rafters or loft floors. If you put it under the pond, it will compress so in my opinion will work no better than if you were to put a standard fleece blanket under.
I have 100mm polystyrene sheets under and all around my tank in the greenhouse. It is a rectangle ridgid fibreglass tank. I fitted a bottom drain and cut a channel in the polystyrene sheet to accommodate the pipe run. The sheets are 100mm thick and longer than my six foot tank. I cut the edges to size with a saw to fit around the sides of the tank. I have a frame made up which has fruit cage netting on it that stays over the tank to stop the Koi jumping out. In the evenings 50mm sheets of polystyrene are put on the top of this to maintain the heat. I do intend to line the greenhouse with bubble wrap which I can get free from work as we had an large computer (size of modern fridge freezer) delivered which was wrapped in the stuff.
I think you’d be OK with 100mm sheets of polystyrene around the edges of your pool too and you could always pin it together with coat hanger wire to stop it falling back; pin it to itself, not the pool
. The B&Q insulation would be cheaper around the edges, although I think it might absorb moisture but I have to admit I’m not 100% sure about that or if it would be an issue. You could use the silver aluminium foil coated polyethylene Greenhouse insulation Thermawrap stuff. It comes in 24 foot rolls, it might be cheaper too since Polystyrene of that size can be expensive.
Hope this helps or gives you ideas at least.
Sorry just seen this post. I know the ECO-Wool insulation that you are referring from B&Q. That will NOT be suitable for laying underneath the framed pond, in my opinon. The reason is that it works by trapping the air and is an excellent insulator between the gaps in rafters or loft floors. If you put it under the pond, it will compress so in my opinion will work no better than if you were to put a standard fleece blanket under.
I have 100mm polystyrene sheets under and all around my tank in the greenhouse. It is a rectangle ridgid fibreglass tank. I fitted a bottom drain and cut a channel in the polystyrene sheet to accommodate the pipe run. The sheets are 100mm thick and longer than my six foot tank. I cut the edges to size with a saw to fit around the sides of the tank. I have a frame made up which has fruit cage netting on it that stays over the tank to stop the Koi jumping out. In the evenings 50mm sheets of polystyrene are put on the top of this to maintain the heat. I do intend to line the greenhouse with bubble wrap which I can get free from work as we had an large computer (size of modern fridge freezer) delivered which was wrapped in the stuff.
I think you’d be OK with 100mm sheets of polystyrene around the edges of your pool too and you could always pin it together with coat hanger wire to stop it falling back; pin it to itself, not the pool
. The B&Q insulation would be cheaper around the edges, although I think it might absorb moisture but I have to admit I’m not 100% sure about that or if it would be an issue. You could use the silver aluminium foil coated polyethylene Greenhouse insulation Thermawrap stuff. It comes in 24 foot rolls, it might be cheaper too since Polystyrene of that size can be expensive. Hope this helps or gives you ideas at least.
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Cheers Brian,
I was thinking the Eco-wool wouldn't be too good insulation for the base as it would compress but that it might help even out the bumps as well as insulating a bit! I think I'm going with polystyrene or Kingspan on the base and then Eco-wool sides as the liner within the frame does bulge out somewhat around the pool. With polystyrene I'll never be able to get a good fit around the bulges and the poles, but the Eco-wool I hope will work really well. I'll use two layers of it and the first will be cut around the poles while the second will overlap any cuts so there can't be any gaps for cold air to leak through. I'm also going to put the inner black pond liner over the eco-wool to prevent water getting in there, but as it's made from recycled pop bottles I hope moisture won't be an issue.
A double layer of bubble wrap is going over the whole of the greenhouse too before the pond goes back in and this will extend down to the ground so will overlap with the eco-wool too! I'm also going to pay a lot more attention to the door and roof vent this year as they let a lot of warmth out last year. A real belt and braces approach I hope!
Hopefully my MDPE fittings will arrive tomorrow for the water feed and then I can go fetch the insulation! Fingers crossed I'll have it all installed by Thursday lunchtime at the latest! Can't wait to get it all sorted as it will make looking after the QT so much easier, as well as allowing me to heat it!
I was thinking the Eco-wool wouldn't be too good insulation for the base as it would compress but that it might help even out the bumps as well as insulating a bit! I think I'm going with polystyrene or Kingspan on the base and then Eco-wool sides as the liner within the frame does bulge out somewhat around the pool. With polystyrene I'll never be able to get a good fit around the bulges and the poles, but the Eco-wool I hope will work really well. I'll use two layers of it and the first will be cut around the poles while the second will overlap any cuts so there can't be any gaps for cold air to leak through. I'm also going to put the inner black pond liner over the eco-wool to prevent water getting in there, but as it's made from recycled pop bottles I hope moisture won't be an issue.
A double layer of bubble wrap is going over the whole of the greenhouse too before the pond goes back in and this will extend down to the ground so will overlap with the eco-wool too! I'm also going to pay a lot more attention to the door and roof vent this year as they let a lot of warmth out last year. A real belt and braces approach I hope!
Hopefully my MDPE fittings will arrive tomorrow for the water feed and then I can go fetch the insulation! Fingers crossed I'll have it all installed by Thursday lunchtime at the latest! Can't wait to get it all sorted as it will make looking after the QT so much easier, as well as allowing me to heat it!
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
It is funny that even though it is made from recycled plastic it has a distinct fibrous / fleecy wool feel to it. I was thinking we’d have a potential moth or insect problem using it as loft insulation. You are right though that being plastic is technically shouldn’t be affected by moisture.
I have taken off the automatic roof vent opener from the greenhouse so prevent it opening or getting stuck open. The door is an issue with mine as it is a sliding type and I am not too sure how to insulate that without having to take it off each time I go in. I am thinking of perhaps making a tent like structure over the QT Tank with bubble wrap to make it extra cosy for the tank. I’m not too sure though if I would be preventing some of the heat generated by the greenhouse from reaching the tank which is insulated.
I have taken off the automatic roof vent opener from the greenhouse so prevent it opening or getting stuck open. The door is an issue with mine as it is a sliding type and I am not too sure how to insulate that without having to take it off each time I go in. I am thinking of perhaps making a tent like structure over the QT Tank with bubble wrap to make it extra cosy for the tank. I’m not too sure though if I would be preventing some of the heat generated by the greenhouse from reaching the tank which is insulated.
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Nice to see someone else using a QT in a greenhouse! I agree it is very fluffy and not at all what you'd think. I've ended up buying 50mm Kingspan for the base as it wasn't going to cost a lot more and should do a better job.
I'm also going to use some to try and get round the door problem as mine is a sliding one too. I'm going to put a piece across the gap where the door is to contain the heat and the wool insulation. I'm going to trap the bubble on the door under the glass and leave it too long to act as a draught excluder and I've replaced the rubber seal recently to help there too. If that doesn't work well I'll stick a double layer of bubble wrap as a second dorr that I have to roll out of the way when going in.
I'm leaving the roof vent as I want some air circulation as often as it's warm enough. My shower gasses off a lot of ammonia and I want this out of the air in the greenhouse when the weather is warm enough!!! I'm going to bubblewrap it thoroughly though for the cold periods!
I'm also going to use some to try and get round the door problem as mine is a sliding one too. I'm going to put a piece across the gap where the door is to contain the heat and the wool insulation. I'm going to trap the bubble on the door under the glass and leave it too long to act as a draught excluder and I've replaced the rubber seal recently to help there too. If that doesn't work well I'll stick a double layer of bubble wrap as a second dorr that I have to roll out of the way when going in.
I'm leaving the roof vent as I want some air circulation as often as it's warm enough. My shower gasses off a lot of ammonia and I want this out of the air in the greenhouse when the weather is warm enough!!! I'm going to bubblewrap it thoroughly though for the cold periods!
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Just realised I never posted the pics and report on my progress!
I managed to get the permanent water and power supplies fitted and working during my half term break and fitted an automatic top-up and waterproof sockets.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0004.jpg[/img]
Then I had to leave actually insulating the pond until last weekend. It was a bit (no quite a lot) of a rush and raining so no step by step pics I'm afraid.
First I drained the pond down and saved most of the water in a 300l water butt and the (cleaned) waste chamber of my filter and then pumped the rest of the water into my main pond (I figured matured, warmer water would be a good thing but would come to regret it).
The fish were removed and kept in the water butt which has a tight fitting lid, which also had a concrete block placed on it to prevent escapees! On netting the fish I out I found that two had the unmistakeable marks of white spot on them! There had been no flashing and no signs at all of any issues and then I see that - I wasn't happy! I had no choice at this point but to carry on so kept my fingers firmly crossed and continued. I was also regretting pumping the spare water into my main pond...
Then I removed the filter and frame, partly collapsed the pond and removed it. I then set to work on the bubblewrap. All the glass surfaces, right down to the floor were insulated with bubblewrap and close attention paid to the corners and edges to make sure there are good overlaps at every possible place where I can lose heat. The only real weak points are the door and the roof vent, but I want to keep them and have insulated the door behind the glass. The roof vent's proving to be a bit trickier.
Then I placed the 50mm kingspan for the base. I used exactly 1 and a half sheets (the half cut lengthways) and they completely fill the base of the greenhouse almost right up to the glass. I swear it felt warmer already at this point...
Then I got the pond back in after a good cleaning. I reassembled it and then started to put the ecowool in. I ran each roll around the pond starting up against the glass and around the greehouse starting from the door. 2 rolls would go all the way around back to the door. I needed two layer thickness to pack out the gap between pond and greenhouse, but this is a nice tight fit now. I also needed the height of two rolls which brings the insulation up just above the pond height. This means I don't need to cover the pond any more as if any fish do jump they have nowhere to go but back in the pond!
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0002.jpg[/img]
I started refilling the pond as I placed the filter frame and filter back in (I found quite a lot of muck in the shower - a sign I need more flow? - so gave it a good clean) and as soon as the water was deep enough put the fish back in. The fish were fine and calm from their couple of hours in the butt.
Here's how it looks now.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0001.jpg[/img]
While the pond was refilling (all through my water meter so I could check the volume again), I set to work on the guards for the heaters. I bought two Jager 300W heaters as they are alleged to be very efficient and will heat up to 1000l of water each. I figured two of these would keep my pond nice and warm. The downside - they are very long! I was going to hang one from each bar of the filter frame, but the cables weren't long enough so at the moment they're one above each other. You can just see them below the koi here.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0007.jpg[/img]
At the moment both are set to the lowest setting (below 18oC on the dial) and the water is at 16oC. I'm going to think about turning them up once I see how much power I'm using!
After sorting that out I added the first batch of salt to ease stress and treat the whitespot and kept my fingers crossed! The salt is at 0.5oz per gallon.
Yesterday I finished bubblewrapping the door and sorting out the insulation there. I have a thinner amount of eco-wool there and have cut a piece of the spare Kingspan to hold the wool in and finish this off neatly. This kingspan piece is butted up against the kingspan on the floor with no airgaps so should do a good job. This is the wool behind the kingspan,
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0005.jpg[/img]
A week on and there is no sign of the whitespot I have kept the salt dosage up and will check to see if I can see any spots later today when I get closer pictures.
Here are a few of the inhabitants looking pretty good despite the disturbance. I'm going to try and get some closer pics later today in the bowl.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0011.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0013.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0015.jpg[/img]
I managed to get the permanent water and power supplies fitted and working during my half term break and fitted an automatic top-up and waterproof sockets.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0004.jpg[/img]
Then I had to leave actually insulating the pond until last weekend. It was a bit (no quite a lot) of a rush and raining so no step by step pics I'm afraid.
First I drained the pond down and saved most of the water in a 300l water butt and the (cleaned) waste chamber of my filter and then pumped the rest of the water into my main pond (I figured matured, warmer water would be a good thing but would come to regret it).
The fish were removed and kept in the water butt which has a tight fitting lid, which also had a concrete block placed on it to prevent escapees! On netting the fish I out I found that two had the unmistakeable marks of white spot on them! There had been no flashing and no signs at all of any issues and then I see that - I wasn't happy! I had no choice at this point but to carry on so kept my fingers firmly crossed and continued. I was also regretting pumping the spare water into my main pond...
Then I removed the filter and frame, partly collapsed the pond and removed it. I then set to work on the bubblewrap. All the glass surfaces, right down to the floor were insulated with bubblewrap and close attention paid to the corners and edges to make sure there are good overlaps at every possible place where I can lose heat. The only real weak points are the door and the roof vent, but I want to keep them and have insulated the door behind the glass. The roof vent's proving to be a bit trickier.
Then I placed the 50mm kingspan for the base. I used exactly 1 and a half sheets (the half cut lengthways) and they completely fill the base of the greenhouse almost right up to the glass. I swear it felt warmer already at this point...
Then I got the pond back in after a good cleaning. I reassembled it and then started to put the ecowool in. I ran each roll around the pond starting up against the glass and around the greehouse starting from the door. 2 rolls would go all the way around back to the door. I needed two layer thickness to pack out the gap between pond and greenhouse, but this is a nice tight fit now. I also needed the height of two rolls which brings the insulation up just above the pond height. This means I don't need to cover the pond any more as if any fish do jump they have nowhere to go but back in the pond!
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0002.jpg[/img]
I started refilling the pond as I placed the filter frame and filter back in (I found quite a lot of muck in the shower - a sign I need more flow? - so gave it a good clean) and as soon as the water was deep enough put the fish back in. The fish were fine and calm from their couple of hours in the butt.
Here's how it looks now.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0001.jpg[/img]
While the pond was refilling (all through my water meter so I could check the volume again), I set to work on the guards for the heaters. I bought two Jager 300W heaters as they are alleged to be very efficient and will heat up to 1000l of water each. I figured two of these would keep my pond nice and warm. The downside - they are very long! I was going to hang one from each bar of the filter frame, but the cables weren't long enough so at the moment they're one above each other. You can just see them below the koi here.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0007.jpg[/img]
At the moment both are set to the lowest setting (below 18oC on the dial) and the water is at 16oC. I'm going to think about turning them up once I see how much power I'm using!
After sorting that out I added the first batch of salt to ease stress and treat the whitespot and kept my fingers crossed! The salt is at 0.5oz per gallon.
Yesterday I finished bubblewrapping the door and sorting out the insulation there. I have a thinner amount of eco-wool there and have cut a piece of the spare Kingspan to hold the wool in and finish this off neatly. This kingspan piece is butted up against the kingspan on the floor with no airgaps so should do a good job. This is the wool behind the kingspan,
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0005.jpg[/img]
A week on and there is no sign of the whitespot I have kept the salt dosage up and will check to see if I can see any spots later today when I get closer pictures.
Here are a few of the inhabitants looking pretty good despite the disturbance. I'm going to try and get some closer pics later today in the bowl.
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0011.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0013.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/eds ... G_0015.jpg[/img]
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Gazza
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Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Hi Ed,
They are looking good mate and lets hope you have sorted the WS and i think with all that insulation you will save a few ££
They are looking good mate and lets hope you have sorted the WS and i think with all that insulation you will save a few ££
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Blimey.... your TLC puts my husbandry skills to shame ..... when can I move in Eds Like my eggs poached in the morning.
Best,
TicToc
..... when can I move in Eds Like my eggs poached in the morning.Best,
TicToc
Re: Insulation for a framed QT pool in greenhouse.
Cheers guys! TicToc, If you like your accomodation wet and salty mate then pop over! 
Unfortunately the WS is still there but fish seem ok - no flashing at all. Upped the salt to 0.75oz per gallon to get rid of it.
Unfortunately the WS is still there but fish seem ok - no flashing at all. Upped the salt to 0.75oz per gallon to get rid of it.